Disrupting the Lens: How River Gallo Created Their Own Representation
At 29- years old, filmmaker River Gallo has pretty much been there and done that. River Gallo is a multifaceted creative whose made waves in Hollywood as a filmmaker but also as an actor and model. Growing up in New Jersey, River, a first generation Salvadorean-American, found a safe space in musical theater before eventually transitioning into film. In 2019, River premiered ‘Ponyboi’ at the Tribeca Film Festival, which they wrote, starred in and co-directed. It’s a dreamy yet haunting short film about an intersex runaway turned sex worker that encounters the man of their dreams in real life-- or so it seems. The film, an exploration of River’s own identity and experiences, is the first narrative ever to star an intersex actor playing an intersex character. At its core, it is a simple message to the world: that the narratives of intersex individuals deserve their spotlight (and much more).
From being recognized by GLAAD as a Media Rising Star (2019), selected for the Ryan Murphy HALF Initiative for Television Directing (2020) as well as the Berlinale Talent Fellowship (2021), there’s no doubt that River has a platform and is sharing real, beautiful and impactful work through it. Now, after navigating the film festival scene, signing on to developing Ponyboi into a full feature film and adapting to life after the pandemic, River has the chance to pause and reflect on the work they have made- and what’s to come next after making cinematic history.
Interview by Daniela Espinosa for The Light Leaks, and edited for publish.
On Starting Out:
How was theatre and filmmaking present in your life growing up?
I started in theater because in high school I was introduced to theater through musical theater. So I was like, you know, one of those annoying musical theater kids. But in a way, it really was the first place where I understood my identity. And I think a lot of people find themselves in high school theater and drama, and later in their lives discover that they're some kind of queer.
What was your academic education at NYU like?
I auditioned for NYU to go to Tisch, I auditioned for the musical theater program. And I did not get in and they placed me in the experimental theater program. That is one of the greatest things that's ever happened to me because it was the program that really focused on nurturing and cultivating your own artistic voice through self-devising your own theater projects and pieces; some were like plays, or movement pieces. Some were like combinations of spoken and movement pieces.
How did you start gravitating towards the film industry more?
My last year at NYU, I realized that I wanted to also study screen-acting. Cause I was like, you know, as much as this beautiful sacred space meant a lot to me, I also was conscious of there being less money in theater. And so I was like, ‘I'm going to study screen-acting’ and I transitioned to the screen acting studio at NYU. And then it was like, I was meeting these agents and managers who just didn't understand me. And this was like, at the time ‘Orange is the New Black’ had just come out. Trans narratives had just started to be big. And I think at the time, people could just tell that I wasn't finished in some way or that I was trying to be something else.
What were those early experiences with agents and managers like?
Maybe if it wasn't conscious to me, there's a reason why managers and agents work in the field they do cause they could just sense things about actors. And I guess what they were sensing about me was me trying to fit the role of like whatever people were assigning to gay CIS men. And I just wasn't that. It was really frustrating ‘cause people thought that I was talented, but they just didn't know how or where to place me.
What finally propelled you to head on into film?
My last year of school, I had also written a theater piece which would later become the ground roots of my short Ponyboi. I had made that piece about a sex worker who was trans and worked on the highways in New Jersey. I decided after I graduated to make that into a short film which then became my artistic submission that I added to my application for grad school.
That was just kind of how the transition worked. I realized that, you know, the universe, or not the universe rather, but society, had put these roadblocks or speed bumps for what I saw for myself. I realized that I had to create my own path and be fearless, even in its kind of windingness; that even if it wasn't straight and clear, that I would have to forge something for myself. And then that's what kind of led me to go to grad school.
For undergrad, you attended NYU's Tisch School of the Arts Experimental Theatre Wing and then you moved to the west coast to attend the University of Southern California's School of Cinematic Arts MFA program. Do you have any feedback for aspiring creatives that are considering their own BA or MFA?
I feel like the universe responds to willingness and whether you get in or not, there's something to be learned about when you focus your attention to acquire something, whether it's just a piece of knowledge about yourself or eventually getting into an institution or school that can help you. And I know money is definitely a factor for some people. It's helpful for sure to go to grad school and institution, but also not necessary because with the amount of money that you ended up spending or having to pay back the government or whatever you could also just create your own film with that money.
For me, I knew that I wanted structure and change and I knew I needed to get out of the East Coast. I had grown up in New Jersey, went to school in New York. I was just kind of in that East Coast bubble for so long. And I knew the only thing that could really get me out was if I went to grad school and not just move to LA. I felt like grad school definitely gave me a community of people first and foremost. And resources, which are the hardest things to find.
On Ponyboi:
How does it feel for Ponyboi to have made history with your identity as an intersex person?
It feels both humbling and also… Being two years after the fact that it came out, I would be dishonest if I said I didn't have very troubled feelings about it. There was a sense of, when it was happening, I was just like, ‘Oh, what I'm doing is so important, and people are recognizing the importance of that’.
And then COVID happened. And then I had a time to really reflect on, ‘Whoa, I had just for the past year and a half, been speaking very openly to many people on the internet and in film festivals and other countries about my genitals’- in a way that, before that, I had never in my life even thought that I would do that. I opened myself up to a place where I was very vulnerable and also didn't hold enough space to be reflective in that process. But now I feel like in the past year, I really have had the time to reflect on that. It has been a bit of a mindfuck, to be honest. But I also don't regret it; the world needed to hear that message because intersex people's narratives are not heard at all.
What would you say are some of the challenges in going from creating Ponyboi the short film to creating Ponyboi the feature film?
I'd say the biggest challenge was how to deepen the intersex narrative in the short film. It happens very quickly through the scene and in a way, I really love that about the film, ‘cause we don't get through definitions. It doesn't become like a PSA. Intersex is only said one time, but you understand the emotional component of it. You really feel like you understand Ponyboi and their experience. In the feature version, you learn about Ponyboi’s childhood and their relationship with their father and mom and how their Latinx culture played a role in how Ponyboi’s family handled them being intersex. So, there's kind of that intersectional component that gets much more developed. That was the hardest part for me, just because I had to really think about my own childhood and my own relationship with my dad.
Is it scary to get that vulnerable with yourself?
Yeah, very scary. It took me a year and a half to write the script, which relatively speaking is a quick time to write a feature. To me though, it's also felt slow.
Looking back now, was it hard to dissect your identity in real time for this film? Now knowing the subsequent feelings?
I guess at the time, because it was for school… I had to get a grade on it to graduate. I wasn't even really thinking about that. I was just kind of like, in the moment of just doing it. I also recently have become sober too and realized that I was pretty much in an active addiction at the time as well. I was kind of numbing myself from any kind of emotions through drugs. Now I feel the vulnerability of everything that was happening back then. I'm in a stage where I'm kind of relearning myself emotionally because it's… I mean, for a lot of intersex people or queer people in general, when you're taught that your existence is less than, it makes logical sense then for why so many queer people commit suicide or go into drugs and addiction. They’re survival tactics to preserve parts of yourself.
What else have you learned about yourself through this process?
Honestly, getting sober has been a true, true blessing for me. I'm realizing just how much of myself I was running away from through using and to be honest, this is the first time I'm actually talking about this. I think for a while I felt just kind of like a shame around addiction and to talk about it openly. Being at peace with myself is something that truly, I don't think I ever really had in my life until now.
I'm so grateful now to be on the other side of it and realize now how much of myself I was protecting, but also how much of myself I was not letting shine. So, I'm really excited, being in this new space and seeing what the feature will be like now that I can truly integrate what I had gone through in the short film; that had to do with a lot of the trauma and sexual abuse that I experienced because I was intersex when I was younger. A lot of layers and a lot of levels. But I feel much more prepared now to tell this story in a deeper, more nuanced and complex way to really pay tribute to the crazy shit that intersex people go through that truly has never really been done in a narrative format. There are some exceptions. But through the lens of intersex people doing this for themselves, that's where it diverges.
Would you say that filmmaking has become your way of connecting with others?
Wow! I never thought of it that way and yes, totally. Wow! It just reminded me of when in 2019, when we were showing Ponyboi at festivals and feeling people's reactions to my film and realizing that that whole experience wasn't just about, ‘Oh, I was vulnerable, and I bared myself and it was so painful and I'm so raw and tender’. What also kept me going was the fact that people were just so moved by it and people like understood and saw parts of themselves in it.
I had one friend who saw my movie, she has a daughter with autism. My friend and her partner came up to me after the movie. They were like, “When we saw Ponyboi, it made us think about our daughter and how, when she was born, we had so many questions and uncertainties and we're questioning ourselves as parents; if we were doing the right choice for her, in her treatment…” And they were just so grateful to have seen themselves in the film. And I was just like, ‘what? Like this straight couple is relating to this film that is an intersex narrative?’. I never realized it would touch people that way.
I think that's the beauty of film. People will meet you halfway in that film gives you a narrative and then it allows the space for you to then connect to it with your own narrative. And in that moment is where real transformation happens.
On The Industry
How is the authorship of storytelling in Hollywood changing? Or not?
When you think of just the sheer broad stroke of cinema history, and how these stories have been dominated by this one specific group of people to tell everybody's stories… now finally people are selling everybody's stories! Finally people are telling stories about other groups that haven’t had a lot of their stories told and those people should be able to tell those stories.
[With] studios and networks, everything winds down to money and risk. Maybe a new POC woman director has less experience than this man, who’s done more features, but that's because she still hasn't been given time. It's this catch 22. Studios and networks need to give them the opportunity to take the experience in order for them to have the experience. This is just the product of capitalism and patriarchy, for you. But I'm very hopeful about the change that is coming. It takes these dialogues to make it happen.
What does intersex representation look like right now?
I think there's something to be said that, you know, trans narratives are really paving the way in that they are part of the popular culture and the zeitgeist right now in the landscape of film and TV, in legislative change as well. But that's not the same for intersex people. There were no intersex rights. Intersex narratives haven't infiltrated popular culture yet. And I would even say queer culture. You'd be quite surprised at how many queer people actually can't tell you the definition of what it means to be intersex.
There’s been a lot of change in the intersex landscape, thanks to the work of the intersex justice project with Sean Saifa and Pidgeon Pagonis.
They got the first hospital in the U S-- Lurie Children's Hospital in Chicago-- to admit that their practices of intersex children were not right and they apologized. And for the moment, they've stopped intersex surgeries while they re-figure out how they're going to move forward with new changes to the children's hospital policies and practices.
At the same time, stuff is happening artistically on the film and TV side. I feel like Ponyboi’s opened the doors for me. I also feel continuing to challenge people in Hollywood and people in the film industry of how they cannot just pay lip service but should actually incite change via supporting intersex artists and intersex film and TV narratives.
How do you view the potential impact of representation in media for the intersex community?
I firmly believe that until there is a work of art, be that a film or a TV show, that could enter the popular culture in which people would learn about intersex people in a way that touch their hearts, there will be no change on a legislative level-- widespread change at least. Because that's just the way culture works. Culture is always five or 10, 15 years ahead of legislative change. It takes time for people's minds and hearts to change via what they see represented in media, and then government to then catch up. And so, until that happens, intersex children and babies, their bodies will continue to be violated at the hands of doctors and the medical industry. To me, there's a pressing matter at hand every day that my movie isn't made. But at the same time, as an artist, you have to trust that and surrender to just the timing of it all. The timing that things will happen when they need to happen at the right time. But that is definitely a balancing act, to really believe and trust in that.
On Creating Their Vision:
Image by Sahar Nicolette for Subvrt
How do you feel Ponyboi is an example of your creative aesthetic?
The whole look of Ponyboi was a team effort with our amazing cinematographer Madeline Leech, and my co-director Sadé Clacken Joseph. Ponyboi definitely feels like he represents me. I love the juxtaposition of using camp and kitsch and glamour, but also making it kind of haunting and darker edge.
How else do you define your creative vision?
I think something that I really strive for in my work is to create extra dimensional spaces, as in like a dimension that floats just above the surface of reality. I guess it is kind of hard to say how that's accomplished, but I'm always curious about how to put the audience in a space they recognize and they're very familiar with, but at the same time feels like…where the fuck am I, because I obviously know a laundromat like this, but I don't know a neon lit laundromat like this!
So, I'm almost interested in just kind of creating spaces that feel both familiar and unfamiliar at the same time. That would have to be inspired by my interests in dream space and transcendence and other dimensions; how to use popular culture and subvert it in a way that it then becomes surreal.
How do you stay inspired? Like what helps you with your creative process, especially when you're experiencing blocks?
As I am currently, I wouldn't like to call it block right now, but I'm in a laboratory phase-- which before I would reference that as a block because I was just like, ‘if I'm not producing, I'm blocked, there's something wrong with me’.
Something that I've realized is, you really have to offer yourself the time to realize that real art comes in phases and periods- similar to farming and the seasons. There's a period of seeding and putting things in the ground. And then you have to wait because the seed can't just sprout up, and then when it does sprout, then you need to remove it and put it in like a different place. And then wait until it grows more.
And then there's the times of harvest.
How did you get to this framing of creativity?
All of these thoughts actually came when I was in this residency on a farm in 2019, where I realized being an artist isn't just about producing, but it's about creating a life that feels sustainable mentally, physically, emotionally. And that to me has become like my utmost priority and focus. More and more, I'm finding the more I feel relaxed and the more I feel at ease and at peace with myself, the more things effortless come to me. And the more I cultivate a sense of being receptive to what can come, the more the work becomes easier.
How else do you try to stay balanced as a creative person?
I do a lot of meditation practice. I try to really get in nature often. I try to varying degrees of success to limit my use of phones and technology when I'm writing and when I'm working. I also take the time to absorb and take the time to watch movies and go to a show or to just sit down and listen to a whole album at one time. I read in the past year the book The Artist Way’s twice.
Can you share more about The Artist’s Way for those who aren’t familiar?
The Artist Way’s by Julia Cameron is like a spiritual book, but it's structured as artistic recovery. So similar to 12 steps or AA addiction programs, it's like recovery for the artist. What you discover is that the more you cultivate a sense of childlike curiosity about things and just do things that make you happy, the more, things just start aligning more easily.
How did this book help you most?
I think a lot of that has to do with the repression of trauma. I felt like coming from being a first-generation college student and coming from a family of undocumented Central American, Latinx family, that I always felt I had to work, work, work, work, work, and never rested and never took the time to reflect. I think a lot of that had to do with feelings of myself and my work being forms of validation and love to acquire from my parents, because that was their love language. We're getting deep here!
The more I realized that I, as an artist, had a voice that had intrinsic value because the voice that I wanted to amplify was one of the marginalized people that don't normally get heard, the more that I could stick to that resolve. I could then realize that my work was in service of a higher good. The more that I realized that my work is in service of this higher purpose, I felt powerful and important in everything I was doing, even if what I was doing, even if what I had needed to do at the time was take a nap.
With your career expanding more into digital campaigns, magazine covers, and other work collaborations- how do you decide what work to take on?
I realized there was a point where you need to draw lines and boundaries about doing work for free. Or when is it that you do something free for free, because you're being of service to something greater or to uplift other people? And that's a conversation that I have with myself. Turning something down isn't just an ego thing, but sometimes it's about listening to what's the highest good for me so that I can make space and become available for the thing that I need to be doing. So that's a bit of a dance that I've been learning more and more how to do.
But above all, heart and vision is what I look at. If it's aligned with my heart and my vision, and if it's aligned with the pulse of the moment, because there are stories that need to be told right now versus stories that do not need to be told right now.
What other projects do you have coming up?
I'm also working on a book of short stories and poems that I'm really excited about. I've always loved writing in short story and poetry format. I'm also working on a pilot and another feature script that is slowly developing.